Advice For Writing a Better Cookbook from All Under Heaven's Carolyn Phillips

 In this mini-episode of Chefs Without Restaurants, host Chris Spear is joined by the acclaimed author Carolyn Phillips to discuss the art of writing a successful cookbook. Known for her works such as At the Chinese Table, All Under Heaven, The Dim Sum Field Guide, and the upcoming The Art of Chinese Baking, Carolyn shares invaluable insights for aspiring cookbook authors.

With accolades including being a James Beard Award finalist and a nominee for the MFK Fisher Distinguished Writing Award, Carolyn’s expertise is unmatched. This episode is packed with tips on creating a high-quality cookbook, the importance of understanding the culture behind the cuisine, and the practicalities of publishing.

Highlights:

• Carolyn’s advice to write about what you know deeply and to ensure that your cookbook offers something new and unique.
• The importance of respecting and accurately representing the culture of the cuisine you are writing about.
• Practical tips on using the metric system in recipes and why it’s essential for precision, especially in baking.
• Insights into the publishing world, including the benefits of starting with magazine articles to build your confidence and credibility.

Resources Mentioned:

• Books on writing: Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott, On Writing by Stephen King.
• Websites: Eat Your Books, CKBK.
• Kitchen tool: Ozeri Digital Kitchen Scale

CAROLYN PHILLIPS
Carolyn's Website
Carolyn's Instagram and Threads
Carolyn's Guide to Chinese Soy Sauce - Eater

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Transcript

Chris Spear: 0:00

Have you ever thought about writing a cookbook? If so, this episode is for you. I'm joined by Carolyn Phillips, an accomplished author known for her works like at the Chinese table, all under heaven, the dim sum Field Guide, and her upcoming book, The Art of Chinese baking. Her accolades include being a James Beard Award finalist, and nominee for the MFK Fisher distinguished writing award, and one of three finalists for the 2023 IACP cookbook awards. I mentioned all this to set the stage. Many people have written cookbooks. But let's be honest, the quality can vary widely. So if you'd like some tips from an accomplished author on writing a better cookbook stick around. This is Chris spear. And you're listening to Chefs Without Restaurants. The show where I speak with culinary entrepreneurs and people working in the food and beverage industry outside of a traditional restaurant setting. I have 31 years of working in kitchens, but not restaurants, and currently operate a personal chef service throwing dinner parties in the Washington DC area. In our upcoming episode, which will be out in a week or two. Carolyn and I dive deep into the world of Chinese food and cooking, exploring its many intricacies. But we also veered into the topic of cookbook writing. I thought this part of our conversation was so valuable that it deserved its own spotlight as a mini episode. I know many of you have either written a cookbook or are considering it. Carolyn shares her insights and tips on creating a successful cookbook in this mini episode. We also touch on the use of the metric system in recipes, and the phenomenon of celebrity cookbooks. This mini episode is a sneak peek and won't be part of our full conversation airing soon. So when you see that episode come up in a week or two, that will be completely new information. And it won't even include this part on cookbook writing. I hope you find this episode both insightful and entertaining. If you have any questions about what you hear, don't hesitate to reach out to either Carolyn or myself. As always, our contact information will be in the show notes. Thanks so much for listening, and have a great week. I know I have a lot of people listening to this or maybe thinking about writing a cookbook or in the process. And I do want to just ask a couple of questions about that because I want this to be beneficial for them as well. What do you have advice for people who are you know, let's say they're not someone just trying to capitalize on some quick Internet notoriety, but someone who really wants to put in the work and put out a quality cookbook? What's some of your advice for them best practices maybe and some of the challenges that you even had with getting your books out there?

Carolyn Phillips: 2:34

Well, number one, writing a book of any kind is hard. It's hard work. Don't expect to be able to just sit down and you know, pump out a book, you need to read books on writing. Take some classes if you want, but I find just like things like Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott or the you know, Stephen King wrote a really good book on writing, learn to write and start, for example, writing articles that you can submit to magazines, it then gives you a little bit of good feedback of like whether or not you're writing well or not. And you probably won't be paid for a long time. So be sure to keep your day job. And then write about something that you really no, it could be anything. If you have a blueberry farm. And you are crazy about blueberries, right about, like a blueberry cookbook, maybe or a book about berries, but make it unique. You know, it's not the same stuff. We know blueberry pancakes we know about, you know, a blueberry buckle and all that stuff. What's new about it can be made fermented blueberries or whatever. You have to go in and really know what you're talking about. Like, too many people write about Asian cuisines, without really comprehending the language. Without really spending the time you've got to have. Like, like any job, you've got to have the experience to support your work. You have to be able to write about, for example, the foods of China. With authority, you have to know what you're talking about. You can't just be just pulling stuff out of the air and expect people to swallow it whole. It's just very much a demanding job and that you have to be responsible. You have to accurately and respectfully show the food and the culture of a people if that's what you're hoping to do, especially like with foreign cultures. There's too many books written by white people that go for vacation, say in Belize and come back and write a cookbook about you know the foods that bliss or honey, you probably eat them in a rat in a hotel restaurant, and had nothing to do with what the people were there cooking. If you are going to learn a foreign language, you probably want to start when you're young, and then really spend some time there and really absorb it and become part of the culture, so that you're approaching the foods not only with a reverence, but with what the Chinese call something in your stomach, you're not just going in there just, I'm going to write a book about the foods of Peking, you know, without really understanding the influences that are involved there, the history that involves there, what the people there went through, why they made the choices they made. Modern History, ancient history, Americans are really terrible, horrible with history of other countries, they probably don't even know about the Opium Wars, you know. And yet, that has totally shaped China's worldview. So for every country is the same thing, when you go into a country really, really, really approach it carefully, and with understanding and with compassion, so that the people there will say, Yeah, you did a good job. Thank you for telling our story. You know, you've opened up doors for us. If you want to do something that's not about another culture, that's fine, too, but make it unique. I was on the James Beard cookbook committee for about three years. And what drew me absolutely nuts was getting these stacks and stacks of books to read that were the same thing that I've read a million times. It just what a waste of paper. What a waste of time. What a what a waste of attention, that could be spent on something else, something excellent. These are all going to end up in the remainder pile. Why do a shoddy job, just go in there and find a new way to tell a story. Like Kansas books on fermentation. He opened up new doors to everybody on how to create fermented books. You look at people who've written about Thai food or Korean food. Again, opening up doors, we now have a better understanding of those cuisines. So again, make it unique, right, well have a unique perspective. And then start writing for magazines and newspapers and things so that you begin to build up a little confidence and then only then can you start approaching publishers. Now, you don't have to have an agent that I didn't have an agent for my first two books, nobody wanted to represent me, number one. Number two, I couldn't find a publisher for love or money. I went through every single publisher in the United States. A couple abroad. I went through college presses, I went university presses, I went through vanity presses. Nobody wanted my books. And that was very, very discouraging. And then suddenly, a Sweeney's was just kind of like the St. Jude for for writers, you know, they said, Yeah, we'll pick you up. And by the way, do you want to write an article for lucky patient, I was like, Oh, my God, you know, whole world opened up. So it's kind of like, I like it was so depressing for a long time I didn't think I'd ever be published. But I finally kind of like likened it to being in a dark room. And you have to just keep fooling around the walls and fiddling around the walls until you finally find the door. And then you've got to find a way to open that door. It is very, very hard unless you are famous. After we had published, gotten the book publisher looked in the writers garden, they said that less than 1% of writers are ever published, unless you're famous, which is why we have so many celebrity cookbooks. But it's, it's very discouraging. But at the same time, it also sets a very high standard, you've really got to get in there and do your homework. Otherwise, you're gonna be very, very disappointed.

Chris Spear: 9:01

I find those celebrity cookbooks just I don't even understand that. Like my mother in law the other day, take out from the library just sell bunch Indians like cookbook, and it's like, you're in the library with 500 Minimum cookbooks. Why are you going to get a cookbook from a supermodel who's not even known for for cooking when you could get, let's say your cookbook? Like it's just mind blowing to me as someone who has spent their life in the food world, why people gravitate towards these of all things, but I'm sure we could talk about that for hours. I just I don't get and I'm a personal chef. So I cook in people's homes all the time. And they have the cookbook stand on their island and it's someone who's got a show on HGTV or something and someone who's not necessarily known for cooking so you know, I'm gonna get crazy if I keep on that trail.

Carolyn Phillips: 9:55

Oh, it's like awesome. Why would you want to cook by a supermodel? They don't eat anything you know, they know Oh, not at all. And tic tac Samia? No, it's like, I think is it's just recognizable as a name that you see you say, if you see Carolyn Phillips, you probably aren't gonna know who that is, you know, but you say, you know, Reese Witherspoon, or some of the other people, you know, if you see their name as it's recognizable, it jumps out at you. That's the thing. And if you're not familiar with cookbooks, that's probably going to be like a comfort zone for you. Because

Chris Spear: 10:29

if I see a 500 page book with a James Beard sticker on it, I'm grabbing that thing.

Carolyn Phillips: 10:33

There you go. That's what you want. Or ICP, they're all like, there's, it's kind of like the good housekeeping seal of approval for cookbooks. Right? If you see that. Absolutely. That's like other places. I mean, you can go online and look at like, eat your books is a really good website that talks that reviews cookbooks or, like cookbooks, CK BK, it's in England. And they also have, like cookbooks online that you can look at. And it's a great way to just kind of educate yourself. If you're going to write a cookbook read a lot of cookbooks, I mean, really understand how to write a cookbook, how to write headnotes, how to write ingredient lists, and for Christ's sake, put in metrics.

Chris Spear: 11:12

I was, you know, as you were talking about this, that was something I was going to ask you, because I've been talking about it online a little bit. I don't understand the push back here to not weigh your ingredients. It's crazy. I tell people all the time. It's a $10 digital scale, you can get on Amazon, because I've written recipes for more than a decade on my own website. And now I'm exclusively putting metric and you know, people will say, I can't cook this. It's all in grams. So like, like, why why would you not weigh these I like it just makes total sense. Just get a scale and learn how to use it. It's really idiot proof.

Carolyn Phillips: 11:48

Well, exactly. It's like all under heaven. I wanted to add metric. And the again, there was pushback the we don't want metric. We just want cups and spoons. And it's like, it's just dumb. It's just so hard to weigh things out accurately. I mean, to measure things out accurate, it's like one, I was looking at a recipe yesterday and enjoy cooking for one and three quarter tablespoons, like what in the world is one three quick details, films, you know, starting this book, I'm just going to always insist I mean, I guess now I have a tiny, tiny bit of stature where I can insist that we use metric and not included in paragraphs, I want the metric first, and then the American measurements by volume later. Because I think that that's the standard, especially when you get into Baking, baking has to be accurate. And I don't know if you've ever tried to measure out a cup of all purpose flour would depending upon the weather, the the brand of the flour, what mood you're in how sloppy you are, it can really vary how much you end up with but if you say, you know 130 grams of all purpose flour is going to be 130 grams, no matter what, it's not going to be off by a smidgen. Right. So why not use metric is so easy. And you just use one voice, put the ball on the on the on the scale, and you hit reset, you know, and then you add your sugar hit reset add your oil head target. It's just like simple. You don't have to wash I don't hate washing dishes. And it's like, wow, why not do that?

Chris Spear: 13:18

I mean ability to scale for me, you know, just something like as easy as pizza dough I made last week I've got my base recipe, but it makes for balls. But we have six people in our house and scaling from four to six. You know, if you scale four to eight, it's easy to doubles. But four to six, there's a variable. And if you're doing that with cups and teaspoons and tablespoons, then you get the one and three quarter tablespoons. But if it's 100 grams, it's now 150 grams, you know, and that's so much easier than figuring out what those conversions look like. So if you're listening to this podcast, and you don't have a scale, please buy one that's going to be my my final word on the scales. Why

Carolyn Phillips: 13:53

we insist on miles and yards and feet, I have no idea. I mean, it's just us and Liberia and Burma that then if kept this is just like, let's just get on the same track. If

Chris Spear: 14:06

you're still here, the podcast is over. If you are indeed still here, thanks for taking the time to listen to the show. I'd love to direct you to one place and that's chefs without restaurants.org. From there, you'll be able to join our email newsletter. Get connected in our free Facebook group, and join our personal chef catering and food truck database so I can help get you more job leads. And you'll also find a link to our sponsor page where you'll find products and services I love. You pay nothing additional to use these links, but I may get a small commission which helps keep the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast and organization running. You might even get a discount for using some of these links. As always, you can reach out to me on Instagram at Chefs Without Restaurants or send me an email at chefs without restaurants@gmail.com Thanks so much